Subscribe to RSSJoyce On CBD Loop
Transport Minister Steven Joyce refused to commit support today for the CBD rail loop saying he would have to await the business case which will be with him before Christmas.
In parliament, the minister said he needed facts before he could be convinced of the expenditure involved for such a loop.
“I am a bit old-fashioned in this regard, because I like to know a number of things before embarking on billion-dollar projects. The first would be a business case on the likely operation of that central business district rail link.
“At the moment a business case is being prepared for all stakeholders. A study team is working on rail-tunnel route alignment and station locations. The team is undertaking costing work, assessing the phasing and timing of possible constructions, analysing the traditional transport benefits and wider benefits, and analysing alternatives.
“Those are all important things we do before embarking on such a project.”
To a question from Labour’s Darren Hughes about the rail loop versus the Puhoi road plan, he said:
“I can tell exactly how many people travel on the road north of Pūhoi today. The conjecture as to who would use a central business district rail loop is premature.”
Asked if he would prioritise the Auckland central business district rail loop as least as highly as the Pūhoi to Wellsford motorway, Mr Joyce said that “the merits of bringing a three-lane highway to a screaming halt at Pūhoi in a one-lane road, in a paddock somewhere just out of Pūhoi, is the sort of transport policy that the previous Government came up with; not the current one.”
Yesterday, the Greens gathered both right and left local body politicians and Labour’s Mt Albert MP David Shearer together to launch a petition and campaign to fast track a CBD loop.
It’s a project supported by leading supercouncil mayoral candidates, Auckland’s John Banks and Manukau’s Len Brown, the latter attending the launch.
So in Parliament, Green’s Gareth Hughes asked Mr Joyce if he agreed with John Banks’ recent opinion piece supporting the central business district rail loop, by arguing that “rail is the most effective and efficient way of providing for Auckland’s growth in travel demand?”
Mr Joyce replied: “I almost agree with his worship the mayor. I would insert the words “one of”: that is, rail is one of the most effective and efficient ways of providing for Auckland’s growth in travel demand. My strong view is that the way we will solve Auckland’s transport problems as that city grows is to have all the modes.”
Greens MP Keith Locke launching the Fast Track CBD campaign
Mr Joyce continued his current mantra that “about 85 percent of trips to and from work each day, according to the last census, are made by road, and about 1 percent by rail”, adding “I am confident rail has grown since then, but I still think it has a fair way to go before it will match the highway contribution.”
He said that once a business case was done, he would need to look at then projected revenues and projected passenger numbers and need an operating budget.
“All these were things that the previous Government’s members did not trouble themselves with too much when they spent taxpayers’ money.”
Here are today’s exchanges in context:
60 Comments
He really is a prat. While I do agree we need to complete the current study first before committing any funding why is he not following the same process for Puhoi to Wellsford, where was the investigation into alternatives. For roads it “I want this built so go and build it regardless” where as for rail it is “we won’t touch it unless you can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt”
Also, this study is done by professionals but it seems like he is going to decide if he likes the figures they will use. What qualifications does he have to do this, that’s right none but that won’t stop him.
Joyce the Muppet will completely screw over public transport before he is removed from power.
Heh, I look forward to the “this project versus that project” debates between the CBD tunnel and the holiday highway when the business case for the CBD tunnel is released.
what more does this douce need? we must be the only city in the world, in a decent country that doesn’t have a proper working city wide PT system with a central CBD station or line of some sort.
sorry but this is just screwed up.
How many Roads of National Significance waited for the outcomes of detailed business cases before they became eligible for funding?
How many RoNS even had business cases done on them?
And I wish he’d get his basic facts right:
“The merits of bringing a three-lane highway to a screaming halt at Pūhoi in a one-lane road, in a paddock somewhere just out of Pūhoi, is the sort of transport policy that the previous Government came up with; not the current one.”
It’s a four-lane highway into a two-lane road if counting both directions, or a two-lane highway into a one-lane road per direction.
If my school maths serves me right, 3 and 4 are different numbers, as are 1 and 2.
Either way the number of lanes halves, not gets cut to one-third as he seems to think.
Andrew - Joyce is actually right there, you have 1 Northbound lane and two southbound lanes merging into two highway lanes in a paddock. The Southbound lane merges before the tunnel for obvious reasons. However if he had mentioned 4 lanes merging into 2 he would of technically be wrong, and up for validated criticism on that point.
And he is right, it was a stupid decision to end it at that point by the current government, however that decision has been made, and we should get our priorities right.
Right!!!
What an arrogant, ideological fool. He really, really does not want to have to put any money into this project and he’ll look for any way to get out of it if he can. The pressure will begin to mount if a strong business case emerges. Funny how a strong business case didn’t seem to matter for Transmission Gully or for the holiday highway. It’s also funny that he keeps quoting rail patronage figures that are years old despite the fact that patronage has grown enormously over the last four years and continues to grom. He’ll dig in as much as he can but i think the pressure will become overwhelming because this is a god project and sorely needed for Auckland.
God! he is an aboslute prat!!!
when will he learn that motorways arent the answer?
oh wait….never!
Well said most of the above. Will he and his government ever realise that rail complimenting road is a win win?
Its odd that under such prudent overseeing by the minister roads don’t need to make a profit, have a sound business case or even need careful scrutinisation. Unlike rail that is!
Steven Joyce is such an idiot
Mr Joyce continued his current mantra that “about 85 percent of trips to and from work each day, according to the last census, are made by road, and about 1 percent by rail”, adding “I am confident rail has grown since then, but I still think it has a fair way to go before it will match the highway contribution”
Maybe this is because 85% of the population don’t have the opportunity to take the train because there isn’t a station near to where they live or the service is so poor that it is impossible to plan their trip around the timetable.
Such a stirring post jon!
Note Joyce’s 85% mantra comes from the Census, which was last conducted on the 7th of March 2006. One could ask why he is putting so much reliance on dated information.
Look I`m getting really fed up about the “reality is 85% of trips are made by car” mantra. Isn`t about time someone quoted S Joyce that around 1900 85% of all trips were made by horsedrawn cart and that was the reality of that time! From that example can we assume that the reality can change! It is the stupidest remark I`ve heard him say and I`m just waiting for some journo to have the balls to give Joyce the “reality” example I`ve given above and tell him the reality actually is his mantra is a load of BS!
@Joshua
No, Joyce is not right. Obviously he must be refering to lanes going in each direction, so he believes the Northern Gateway has six total lanes at it’s northern end when in fact it has three.
“I am a bit old-fashioned in this regard, because I like to know a number of things before embarking on billion-dollar projects” - No you’re not old fashioned like that at all Joycey, you couldn’t car less about BCR as long as it’s a roading project you’ll throw money at it. Just admit it.
Joyce “couldn’t car less” eh?
That’s one hell of a Freudian slip!
If Mr Joyce says he is “old fashioned” maybe it is time for him to step aside and let somebody who can think outside the square do the job.
His 85% argument is also quite irrelevant. I’m sure that if you look at what happens in the UK, Australia and many European countries you’d also find that the majority of trips were by car. The point is that the trips that do take place on the rail system have characteristics that make them incredibly unsuitable to be served by road.
They are concentrated around the same time of day, they are concentrated on heading towards the same area, they are long and they are focused on places where you don’t want to have to provide a lot of parking.
It is enormously beneficial for the economy for these trips to be provided for by public transport (preferably rail) instead of by car.
As a Hamiltonian, I really hope we give him the boot next election. Have been very disappointed with his reluctance to help his own city, let alone the rest of NZ.
“Funny how a strong business case didn’t seem to matter for Transmission Gully or for the holiday highway”
Interesting that both those projects give potentially strong benefits up front to a large road freight industry, but a central city rail tunnel directly benefits lots of individuals moving around the city. The Tunnel benefits would undoubtedly contribute to the wider economy starting with Auckland.
Unless there’s a group of businesses standing to profit directly National’s not interested. Similar to the workplace law changes announced recently and the problems faced by freezing works companies with their staff taking sick days.
Politically he can’t say “we’re all about helping businesses to improve the economy before we improve travel conditions for individuals.” - Thats a vote loser, but if at the end of the activity they can show “oh look we built this road and the economy has improved so more jobs for New Zealanders” - thats a vote winner.
Kalelovil - “@Joshua No, Joyce is not right. Obviously he must be refering to lanes going in each direction, so he believes the Northern Gateway has six total lanes at it’s northern end when in fact it has three.”
“the merits of bringing a three-lane highway to a screaming halt at Pūhoi…”
When did we ever refer to highway lanes as one direction? Sorry but working in the transport industry, I can assure you he is correct, you never refer to highways in one direction unless you specifically mention northbound and southbound lanes. I’m sorry to say that almost everything Joyce says is correct, it’s just the manner he interprets the information, and the questions he doesn’t ask himself, like why is this the situation.
My fear in getting rid of Joyce is that things wouldn’t get done, and no matter what PT advocates say, he has progressed some really important roading projects which have been long overdue, my concern is the priority roading is getting over rail, and the underinvestment in rail.
Yes, Joshua you are absolutely right on about all of this especially the idea that all highways only go in a single direction, and that “getting rid of Joyce” will not get things accomplished. For myself I tend to agree on and off with Minister Joyce (in his capacity as “Minister of Transport” not the drummed up “Roads” title), however I disagree with the Minister not seeing that the Auckland CBD Rail Tunnel be afforded the high status that’s been given to the SH1 Puhoi to Wellsford project. All modes of transport with projects that are major or have major implications must be given the same high status regardless if they be road, rail, etc. What is needed is a strong commitment to rail as has been evident in roads and that since reading the comments in this and other related articles, the two don’t have to fight each other, they need to compliment each other, along with other modes for the benefit, enjoyment and prosperity of all New Zealanders.
Minister Joyce says that he is “old-fashioned” when it comes to researching and reading vital information, there is nothing wrong with that at all. Maybe not entirely for transport, but you need a bit of old- and new-fashion otherwise everything goes downhill. As for “getting rid” of him he was indirectly elected by the people of I believe from the Auckland electorate of East Coast Bays. As I said before I tend to agree on and off with Minister Joyce and agree to disagree, but what I will never do is insult and offend someone regardless if I don’t get what I’m advocating for. I have a lot of respect and admiration for the Minister especially in light of the bashing and rhetoric clearly directed at him. You don’t have to agree with the Minister, that’s your democratic right but in general be respectful in your disagreements and give the Minister a fair go.
Thanks
@Bill- Are you Stephen Joyce?? Seriously though thanks for the lecture about how we should speak about the minister. However part of being in a democracy is that we can express ourselves about elected officials in the manner we see fit. Of course you don’t have to agree with that. Respect is not something someone gets as a matter of right and certainly not soemthing someone gets simply for being a minister. If we think someone is being foolish, ideological and at times deliberatly misleading we are entitled to call it as we see it. Just because you have a lot of respect for the minister does not mean everyone else shares that opinion. The minister has had a fair go and shown himself to be an old fashioned 1950s road fetishist with little more than a superficial knowledge of overall transport matters and a blind faith belief that one transport mode should be invested in at the expense of all others simply because he thinks it fits with his user pays ideology.
Thanks
CB, I am not Steven Joyce but you must have a problem with someone whose not completely siding with you. As I have said I agree on and off with the Minister, that is my and your democratic right. Of course expressing opinions about the elected representatives who represent us is part of a vibrant and functioning democracy, whether it be negative or positive, I’m not lecturing just saying that their should be a degree of respect and civility. However that saying I have disagreements about you have written, and I’ll say this again, I agree on and off with the Minister, that is my and your democratic right, but I will not insult him as has been clearly written.
CB, I am not Steven Joyce but you must have a problem with someone whose not completely siding with you. As I have said I agree on and off with the Minister, that is my and your democratic right. Of course expressing opinions about the elected representatives who represent us is part of a vibrant and functioning democracy, whether it be negative or positive, I’m not lecturing just saying that their should be a degree of respect and civility. However that saying I have disagreements about what you have written, and I’ll say this again, I agree on and off with the Minister, that is my and your democratic right, but I will not insult him as has been clearly written.
CB - We have to remember members of National Party, Key and Joyce, are not there for money, they are there to truly help NZ and grow NZ to be the best country possible, and to do the right thing. For that you have to give respect to the man, and if you don’t then your opinion can not be seriously considered by anyone in a responsible position. The National Party has been playing catchup, from the hole the last government had put them in, and from the years past, (including previous national governments), In terms of transport we are completing projects that were planned decades ago so you have to give credit to Joyce for pushing through these projects, and actually getting them done.
Yes it is unfortunate the priority given to these projects are one sided on transport ideals, and are not providing the balanced system we need as of yet. And we will not agree with everything that Joyce does, but at least we are making progress and doing projects that should of been completed years ago.
I agree a person has to gain respect, but you don’t choose to respect someone on the terms to agree with them or not, but on their intentions and willingness to carry them out. His intentions are good, we might not agree with everything he does but I certainly respect the man.
I’m sorry this sounds as a lecture on respect, but to attack someone who is sacrificing lifestyle and monetary potential to what he thinks is best for the country is disrespectful and rather self-centered, instead we should be arguing the actions we believe should be taken, and putting our arguments out there, thats what democracy is about expressing your opinion, not criticizing people directly.
Bill, Joyce is a list MP, so he’s not elected by any particular group of people other than those who gave National their party vote.
Pray tell, if he’s not “Minister of Roads”, what’s he done for transport projects that aren’t roading-related and didn’t originate with Labour? His crowning new achievement thus far has been the Puhoi SH1 project, and insisting that a CBD loop tunnel must stand on a solid business case when the business case for the SH1 extension is very, very weak.
Joshua, agreed 100%
Yes Matt I’m aware of the fact that he is a list MP, but unofficially his base (Albany) would be around the East Coast Bays electorate even though Murray McCully is the elected MP.
And I agree more emphasis needs to really start shifting to rail projects especially the CBD tunnel and Airport Rail Link, those are a must, a business case should be skipped.
Matt - “Bill, Joyce is a list MP, so he’s not elected by any particular group of people other than those who gave National their party vote.” - So the majority of the Country.
“His crowning new achievement thus far has been the Puhoi SH1 project” - Nice to see you are talking for other people, but I would put Vic park, Waterview Tunnel when it occurs and the National Integrated Ticketing Standards all above the Puhoi SH1 project as crowning Achievements.
“CBD loop tunnel must stand on a solid business case when the business case for the SH1 extension is very, very weak.” - That is definitely a matter of opinion, and I respect your opinion, however it does depend what value you give to peoples lives, time savings etc.
Oh and he does have a business case for Puhoi, and is waiting for the one for the CBD rail loop, which I think is fair since he is spending my money as a tax-payer on the project. We can’t really comment further until we see the report and his action from it.
[...] Motorway, Trains by Admin — Leave a comment 30/07/2010 Interesting Opinion piece about Joyce On CBD Loop. The discussions have been focused on Joyce’s creditability, from the debate you can see that [...]
I’m finally coxed into commenting here just to support Bill actually.
Joyce is Minister of transport which means all modes. he is not minister of public transport.
He is right when he argues most people use roads. He has made it clear he still hands out money for rail.
The Tauranga roading announcement yesterday is great news for the region and will benefit it economically. Tolling is a smart way to get the project happening.
I will be laughed out of this debate when i say it but in hindsight Joyce will be seen as a great minister of transport in latter years when these projects finish.
Under Labour we got lots of talk but little action including on the rail front where Cullen was not at all impressed with the argument for Auckland rail.
Thanks Stephen for the support, so to Joshua.
“the merits of bringing a three-lane highway to a screaming halt at Pūhoi in a one-lane road, in a paddock somewhere just out of Pūhoi”
Care to talk instead about the merits of bringing four rail tracks (i.e. southern and eastern double tracks) to a screaming halt against a wall in Britomart, Mr Joyce?
“sorry this sounds as a lecture on respect, but to attack someone who is sacrificing lifestyle and monetary potential to what he thinks is best for the country is disrespectful and rather self-centered”
Please. Don’t give me that. Yes, politicians may sometimes sacrifice money for power (not too bad a trade by the way) but that alone doesn’t make me respect them. I could respect Joyce for being a go-getter, but I disrespect him because he picks his facts the way he picks his soundbites - sloppily, and to his personal tastes (like the $15,000 per passenger per trip comment on Hamilton Rail).
Karl, Auckland effectively has three rail tracks (inbound from each of the main suburban lines) coming to a screaming halt into one track into the Britomart tunnel… then into a brick wall 900m later.
Thats one problem with the proposed CBD tunnel, it only provides two tracks through the centre even though there are three in from the suburbs and three out again… still, much better than only one track through the middle.
karl - perhaps thats why Public Transport advocates are not listened to by any government in power, and perhaps thats why we are in the situation we are in now, giving the lack of balanced funding. How can you take people such as yourself seriously, unfortunately with comments like that you lose all creditability. Give some respect and you shall receive, enough said, I truly feel sorry for you to be in such a negative state of mind. I do agree with your first comment, however attacking people who have done allot of good, is not helping. Almost a good post.
Bill,
Your thoughtful views are spot on.
I have a business in Northland and we are desperate for a real economic injection into the area and believe the Wellsford road is desperately needed.
Northland has become NZ’s forgotten area and you have to live here and run a business to understand the level of poverty, despair, drug abuse, domestic abuse and poor education among the young.
There are too many young people growing up without hope and the inevitable happens in their life where they turn to crime.
If you see this, you understand why building up the economics of the region would make such a difference.
Like the Waikato Expresssway, northland needs to be an extension of Auckland to bring the freight and trade here.
It’s a geographically stunning area and very under developed.
It holds much promise.
As this is my first post, I also want to thank Jon C for his excellent coverage of news here.
I would never know about most of this stuff if it was not for him. Coverage in mainstream media of transport issues is minimal.
He runs a very balanced site and lets others have a voice. I notice he has never himself used the term holiday highway and I hope that means he supports it.
Bryce,
I very much appreciate your comments, especially the view from Northland where the new SH1 highway would have an explosive (positive) impact, that everyone would concur with. I believe a lot of people from Northland and Rodney are well supportive of this, and need to make their views known, and you have started that. Nobody knows that more than you and others in the Northland-Rodney region, you give us an on-the-ground insight and vision into the highway’s immediate and long-lasting impact.
As you are a business owner the highway would most definitely contribute to business success and survival, so to the economic growth, development and prosperity of an unfortunately,
“forgotten area”, shame!.
I, myself am very familar with regions like Northland. For about 10 years I lived in the eastern part of the U.S. state of Kentucky, and for those knowledgeable of U.S. geography know that this is part of the Appalachia region - an undeveloped, isolated, impoverished, illiterate, crime-ridden, steorotyped region containing most of the southern states. Up until (dear me say) the 1950s this region was virtually untouched mainly due to the geographical, social and economic burdens plummeting this bypassed, “forgotten area”. That all changed, but overtime, thanks to none other than the Interstate Highway System, which came from Germany’s Autobahn, equivalent to the State Highway Network. Building the Interstate through tough and high terrain was like building a sandcastle, bulldozing it and building it again, but the immediate and long-lasting impact it brought to Appalachia was the end of isolation, straighter and wider multilaned, divided highways, and the beginning of unprecedented economic growth and development, along with major social and cultural benefits. These days a lot of traffic, interstate, interregional (or interprovincial) pass through the Appalachia region contributing to the benefit, enjoyment and prosperity of all it’s people, and is no longer forgotten. Partly due to that, young people have remained or returned because of more incentives and more opportunities for them, reducing the likelihood of criminal offending and increasing hope for the future.
For Northland the highway’s importance goes far beyond the physical highway itself, the region’s economic future is what rests on the highway’s progression and delivery which is clearly, and of no question, critically important for Northland and for New Zealand. In terms of the Waikato Expressway which needs to be viewed separately as part of the Waikato transport system, the Northern (or Northland) Gateway, impacting Rodney and Northland overall, needs to be viewed as an extension of the Auckland transport system, whereby Northland can contribute heavily to freight and trade especially at Northport and Whangarei, and at some point replace Port of Auckland’s Waitemata operations, allowing for Auckland’s Waterfront extension.
I too agree that the geography is stunning like Appalachia with it’s rolling green hills and escalating mountains, needs to be developed and provide promise for all, such as residents, tourists, etc. The SH1 Puhoi to Wellsford project will make that become reality and lasting for the entire benefit, enjoyment and prosperity of Rodney and Northland, and importantly New Zealand.
Again Bryce I very much appreciate your comments, and welcome.
All the best, thanks very much.
Bryce,
I very much appreciate your comments, especially the view from Northland where the new SH1 highway would have an explosive (positive) impact, that everyone would concur with. I believe a lot of people from Northland and Rodney are well supportive of this, and need to make their views known, and you have started that. Nobody knows that more than you and others in the Northland-Rodney region, you give us an on-the-ground insight and vision into the highway’s immediate and long-lasting impact.
As you are a business owner the highway would most definitely contribute to business success and survival, so to the economic growth, development and prosperity of an
unfortunately, “forgotten area”, shame!.
I, myself am very familar with regions like Northland. For about 10 years I lived in the eastern part of the U.S. state of Kentucky, and for those knowledgeable of U.S. geography know that this is part of the Appalachia region – an undeveloped, isolated, impoverished, illiterate, crime-ridden, stereotyped region containing most of the southern states. Up until (dear me say) the 1950s this region was virtually untouched mainly due to the geographical, social and economic burdens plummeting this bypassed, “forgotten area”. That all changed, but overtime, thanks to none other than the Interstate Highway System, which came from Germany’s Autobahn, equivalent to the State Highway Network. Building the Interstate through tough and high terrain was like building a sandcastle, bulldozing it and building it again, but the immediate and long-lasting impact it brought to Appalachia was the end of isolation, straighter and wider multilaned, divided highways, and the beginning of unprecedented economic growth and development, along with major social and cultural benefits. These days a lot of traffic, interstate, interregional (or interprovincial) pass through the Appalachia region contributing to the benefit, enjoyment and prosperity of all it’s people, and is no longer forgotten. Partly due to that, young people have remained or returned because of more incentives and more opportunities for them, reducing the likelihood of criminal offending and increasing hope for the future.
For Northland the highway’s importance goes far beyond the physical highway itself, the region’s economic future is what rests on the highway’s progression and delivery which is clearly, and of no question, critically important for Northland and for New Zealand. In terms of the Waikato Expressway which needs to be viewed separately as part of the Waikato transport system, the Northern (or Northland) Gateway, impacting Rodney and Northland overall, needs to be viewed as an extension of the Auckland transport system, whereby Northland can contribute heavily to freight and trade especially at Northport and Whangarei, and at some point replace Port of Auckland’s Waitemata operations, allowing for Auckland’s Waterfront extension.
I too agree that the geography is stunning like Appalachia with it’s rolling green hills and escalating mountains, needs to be developed and provide promise for all, such as residents, tourists, etc. The SH1 Puhoi to Wellsford project will make that become reality and lasting for the entire benefit, enjoyment and prosperity of Rodney and Northland, and importantly New Zealand.
Again Bryce I very much appreciate your comments, and welcome.
All the best, thanks very much.
Interesting discussion here. A few points:
1) The “three lanes into one” doesn’t make sense. What happens going north is that you have a four lanes, then three (two southbound, one northbound) and then two lanes (one northbound, one southbound). You never end up with a single lane road, unless you’re talking about a single lane in each direction.
2) I guess we should reserve judgement on Joyce’s attitude towards the CBD rail tunnel until the business case is completed and we see what he actually says. However, he has made it very difficult for this project to be funded by insisting that all NLTF funds are spent on roads, even if road-users would benefit hugely from the congestion relief that a rail project would bring. Unless Joyce changes that policy I can’t see how he would fund the CBD tunnel.
3) I’m curious why people think that the Puhoi-Wellsford Road will transform Northland. At best it will save 10-15 minutes off a trip between Puhoi and Wellsford - will 10-15 minutes change the world? I doubt it. Furthermore, the project will bypass Wellsford, which will kill that town as it depends on through-traffic for much of its activity.
4) Joyce certainly “gets stuff done”, but that’s only because he has access to a huge amount of funding, through petrol taxes, road-user charges and so forth. It was actually the previous government that changed the legislation to ensure that all money raised from transport was spent on transport and it was that move which opened up the flow of funds that Joyce can now spend. The reason Joyce is cautious about rail is because he knows he’ll have to go to Bill English and ask for cash for it, whereas due to the policy changes he made to free up more money for holiday highways, if he wants to spend on roads he’s got this big pool of funds to spend however he wants.
While Joyce’s formal position within the National Party is somewhere like number 13, we all know that he’s basically John Key’s closest advisor - and therefore he is very influential. If he was more concerned about ensuring the best value for money from his transport spend, rather than satisfying the interests of his trucking buddies, then he could be a fantastic transport minister. I remain to be convinced though.
Steven is National’s campaign manager and Mr FixIt man. I am not sure he is closest adviser but certainly in the inner circle.
But the interesting thing to watch is next term (Labour Clown Carter guaranteed that this week), Joyce has been promised finance minister so we will get a new transport minister but Joyce will hold the purse strings.
Unlike previous transport ministers, Joyce is a whirlwind who makes things happen and is impatient to get pet projects done and I greatly admire that.
As for the North, Bryce is right. I spent sometime in Kamo. The North as he says is a forgotten - read greatly neglected region - as if the North island stops at Auckland as far as politicians see it.
There is huge potential there and we need to start building up the infrastructure to exploit its potential.
As Bryce says, the sight of lost kids hanging around towns getting drawn into gangs and getting wasted all day is very sad and should be a priority to get attention.
I also echo Bruce’s appreciation of this site. I would not have known about the Tauranga eastern Link progress - another worthwhile boost to that region’s economy- without reading it here. It didn’t get any mention in Wellington media.
I don’t think anyone actually disputes the need to upgrade the road and also to improve Northlands economic performance but the question that needs to be asked, is spending $2bil on a motorway the best way to do that. Could we spend $500mil on improving the road by bypassing the towns, installing better safety features, easing corners, adding some passing lanes etc and then spend another $500mil on improving the rail line to be able to handle the bulk of the freight. Would this get us a better return on our investment? Of course we don’t know because those sorts of options haven’t been investigated.
I think Joyce is good at getting things done but he only really does the things he wants to. In the Puhoi to Wellsford case he effectively said “we are going to build this road regardless so go and write a business case that supports it” where as for the CBD tunnel it is more a case of “we won’t even consider it unless you have a rock solid business case done first”. What we really need is just a bit of consistency.
Nearly all the projects you breathless Joyce supporters are citing as proof of his vigour were started by the last government - and that’s just the nature of large projects with long lead times, regardless of who’s in power. Government will always want a say in large capital investment, and they routinely hand over money for things like Wellington’s new trains and for roads everywhere.
However this Minister has certainly shifted the focus from now on, right from the beginning of his term. I don’t doubt Joyce thinks he’s doing the right thing by pissing in the pockets of the trucking industry who supported his election and sucking up to the farmers and bach-owners of Rodney, but no way should that earn unquestioning admiration from the rest of us. Judged by his publicly-funded decisions and utterances, the man is a deluded road-worshipping fool who’s proudly living in the past. I beleive others have already tried talking nicely to the man and it hasn’t had any impact on anything let alone stop the outright misrepresentation like the 3 lanes into 1 garbage. Respect is earned.
Improving Northland’s economy for the next few decades would be better served by bold investment now in broadband and education/training. Not by building expensive highways as if peak oil isn’t happening and future enterprises will still revolve around making and shipping physical goods. Road contruction creates very few jobs per dollar. Joyce has already diverted money from repair funds, so expect to see more potholes soon all around the nation as another price for this folly.
By all means, boost public transport services across Northland to get cars off the road and free up space for trucks (which will still be needed. let’s be clear). A modest bypass around Warkworth might at least produce a benefit-cost ratio of greater than 1 and come in at more like $100 million than $2,000 million. Meanwhile Joyce and his fellow geniuses in cabinet cut investments in this nation’s future like early childhood education with a BCR of over 20. Where’s the “ambition” in that?
“you breathless Joyce supporters”, Well really?
I call the panting like I hear it, Bill
Nice…..
Throwing insults at those of us who support Joyce’s infrastructure policies is the sort of puerile behaviour that does not help the case of public transport lobbyists and i love the way you all join hands to chant abuse like some primary school playground attack on the fat boy.
You also always make the assumption we are anti rail or anti public transport.
I use the trains in Wellington despite the very frustrating conditions of the last year which have driven many away back into their cars until the development is finished.
But I also recognise there is a need for all transport modes in this country.
If you want to be taken seriously, show some manners.
Yes, behave children. Daddy knows best.
It’s Joyce who is anti-rail - no one said that about commenters. If “breathless” gets you all hot and bothered, you really aren’t all that engaged with what’s going on in transport beyond the clips you’ve seen on the telly. And you sure haven’t read even what I wrote above if you reduce it to “public transport lobbyist”.
Please don’t worry, Jon, I won’t be getting into a prolonged argument here with those determined to believe whatever the smiling man in the suit tells them.
“you breathless Joyce supporters” and “I call the panting like I hear it, Bill”
I believe we’re sensing the hostilities of a person wanting to wave the red flag of war, aren’t we? Sacha not all of us are entirely Anti-Joyce and far-left ideologes, everyone on here are making their views known either way, not one way, as seen from above. Expressing ourselves, however we like is our democratic right.
Think about that.
Sacha - have to say I love your determination and persistence, now lets get some facts out of you. What projects have come through that were not fast tracked by this government, remembering these projects were in the works for decades, the last government did not create them at all. You say investment in broadband and education would be better, funny it’s this government that has got the ball rolling on a broadband scheme, and education well you can blame labour for the hole we are in because of NCEA. Nice to see this government is putting measure to solve this, so what I’m saying is you argument is not standing up here.
Roading creates very few jobs per dollar - were do you get these ideas from? are you talking directly or indirectly? and are you able to give examples? - to me the only case you might have with that claim is long term employment.
jarbury - please note first that do respect you and your comments and do agree with much of what you say, however I do believe that there was more than just the change to the funding arrangements of transport, for the current “gets stuff done” attitude being shown from this government. I do believe that they need credit for this, as I say I don’t necessary agree with the priorities of these projects, but I do agree they need to be completed at some stage.
“Joyce certainly “gets stuff done”, but that’s only because he has access to a huge amount of funding, through petrol taxes, road-user charges and so forth. It was actually the previous government that changed the legislation to ensure that all money raised from transport was spent on transport” - Yes we do need to give the previous government some credit for this, but do not forget that it was this government that cut allot of the red tape bs that has been prolonging the construction progress of these projects, and it’s this government that are pushing forward with the projects, the Labour party also had the money, however failed to use it.
No doubt the nasty people here are the types I have noted on the campaign for better transport forum - sycophantic hotheads who shoot at anyone who travels by car.
Please take your immature comments to some other transport blog while we discuss the future of NZ and what is best for it, especially Northland.
I 100% support the Puhoi project. It is the right time and the right place for some action on improving this link and am thrilled we at last have a transport minister who gets things done, unlike the dithering Labour ministers who could never make a decision.
Back to the Puhoi to Wellsford debate.
I agree this is part of the way to boost the North.
But there needs to be a lot more done.
The social problems there as discussed are immense and there is little hope for too many of the region’s young drifters.
Maybe some of them could be used on the building of the road to give them employment and some purpose in life.
The government could stipulate only those in Northland are employed on the job.
Anyone who wants the facts about this should spend some time reading here and on Joshua Arbury’s transportblog. Then come back and ask informed questions.
The ignorant politicised stuff about broadband, NCEA and so forth I’m not going to respond to. Nor the accusations that getting annoyed with easily correctible lying makes me immature or that failing to kiss arse means I’m some sort of loony activist.
As someone who has been involved in the freight industry for a long time, it is obvious many of those commenting here do not run their own business.
NZ is a very expensive and difficult country to do business in because of the geography.
To get your goods into shops in Kaikohe and Gore is an expensive frustrating and time consuming exercise including getting them across a rough stretch of land between the main islands.
But this is the backbone of our economy.
It was impossible to get this through to Labour people who got excited about the arts and social issues but rolled their eyes when you dealt with business problems because they came from an academic background.
Bad tempered Cullen wasn’t much better as the keeper of the money.
This is such a breath of fresh air to have a business orientated government which understands that to get goods to shops through the north, you need to move the freight.
Joyce is National’s best minister and deserves recognition as such.
Has anyone else actually read the business case for the Puhoi-Wellsford Road? It’s exceedingly dodgy, with the benefits only adding up to around $530 million, even though the most common cost for the project that is mentioned is around $1.6 billion. While a cost-benefit ratio of 0.8 is often bandied about, I wonder whether the real figure is around 0.3.
More detail here: http://transportblog.co.nz/2010/07/17/holiday-highway-the-dodgy-business-case/
Joshua, you say ““His crowning new achievement thus far has been the Puhoi SH1 project” – Nice to see you are talking for other people, but I would put Vic park, Waterview Tunnel when it occurs and the National Integrated Ticketing Standards all above the Puhoi SH1 project as crowning Achievements.”
The only one of those that was entirely Joyce’s doing is the SH1 extension. All of the others, every single one, originated under Labour. The Waterview link, Vic Park, integrated ticketing, all of them pre-date November 2008. The SH1 extension is the only thing that Joyce has come up with entirely absent of work done by the last Labour Government. It really is his crowning achievement, but do feel free to keep on talking up the completion of all those other multi-year projects as though Joyce did anything more than sign cheques (if that). By that token, if a Labour government is in charge in the unfortunate event that the SH1 extension Joyce envisages is completed I fully expect the Minister of Transport at the time to take full credit for it.
Want to improve the economy of Northland? Fix the rail line, double-track it, and get some heavy industry going along its path. Get the Marsden Point link built. Rail beats road hands-down for volume and price of freight carriage, but all the Joyce cheerleaders are chanting from the “If it’s not road, it’s not real transport” hymn book. The rail line is already designated, and already halfway there. It needs work, and it needs to be double-tracked (which can be done separately), but it’ll cost a hell of a lot less to remedy its failings and get it to a state where it can carry significant volumes of freight, than the Holiday Highway. It’ll also be ready a whole heck of a lot sooner than twenty-twenty-something, which is about the best estimate for completion of the SH1 extension, and it won’t have to destroy the economies of towns like Warkworth due to being built as a bypass. Everyone wins.
“karl – perhaps thats why Public Transport advocates are not listened to by any government in power, and perhaps thats why we are in the situation we are in now, giving the lack of balanced funding.”
What? Because we are ANGRY that public transport, despite copious evidence to the contrary, is treated like it was some sort of “money down the drain” exercise, and simply ignored by this government whenever it gets away with it?
You sound like a US political spinmeister who talks a lot about the “anger” of his opponents - as if a) that anger was something alien to human experience, something evil, and b) as if it didn’t have a lot of reasons.
“How can you take people such as yourself seriously, unfortunately with comments like that you lose all creditability.”
In the eyes of people who have made up their minds already? Sure. But that is always the case.
And the heat of a conversation is always tempered by both sides.
“Give some respect and you shall receive, enough said, I truly feel sorry for you to be in such a negative state of mind. I do agree with your first comment, however attacking people who have done allot of good, is not helping. Almost a good post.”
I have always tried to avoid “ad hominem” name-calling. However, I will always oppose bad decisions, and yes - do so to the level of calling someone a fool for making them. I am not going to convince Steven Joyce, but I do believe that others may become aware of his faults if someone bluntly states them. If that insults him or those who think he’s the greatest minister in decades, that is not my problem.
Your praise, by the way, is VERY faint. Let’s stick to the issues, rather than discuss metaphysics and politeness. Sticking to the issues IS the politest course.