Rimutaka Incline Rail Returns


The famous Rimutaka Incline, 40km north-west of Wellington closed in October 1955 when rail traffic was re-routed through a new Rimutaka tunnel. Plans are to bring it back to life.

The Rimutaka Incline was the 4.8 km 1,067 mm gauge on an average grade of 1 in 15 between Summit and Cross creek stations on the original Wairarapa line.

The Rimutaka Incline Railway Heritage Trust has lodged an application with Greater Wellington Regional Council to reconstruct the former railway line between Maymorn and Summit, located in the Pakuratahi Forest Park.

The idea is for the heritage railway to operate at least daily between Maymorn and Summi.

Rimutaka Incline | NZ Railways magazine 1930 www.nzetc.org

Trains travelled the incline to and from the Wairarapa from 1878.The railway was twice as steep as the steepest mainline railway in our country.

A special Fell system helped locomotives grip the rails. The Fell engines used a third rail which worked by adhesion to aid traction up the incline and to act as a brake coming down.
Culverts and tunnels were cut to control flooding on the track.

It’s hoped the heritage rail could attract more than 40,000 domestic and international tourists per year.

The application is the culmination of ten years of investigation, planning and design work.

A comprehensive business plan and budget was submitted, along with an economic feasibility assessment earlier undertaken by BERL.

Detailed plans included proposed facilities at Maymorn, Kaitoke and Summit, a connecting route at Maymorn, a 2km deviation to the south and east of Kaitoke and a new walkway for the length of the route.

A new route is proposed to deviate the railway from the former Kaitoke alignment. Kaitoke station was located on a flat bench cut into a hillside when the Wellington and Masterton Railway was built in the 1870s.

Since November 1987, the railway formation between State Highway 2 at Kaitoke and the former settlement at Cross Creek has been a popular walkway and recreation area for walking and cycling.

Since closure of the line, the station area, including houses, has been subdivided and sold, a portion of the railway formation alongside State Highway 2 obliterated. The remainder of the railway formation is being used as road access to the Rail Trail, go-kart track, glider club and rifle range.

The trust says that reinstatement of the former route would be extremely difficult, presenting high impact to residents, requiring new roads to be formed, and a potentially constrained station site.

The area was registered under the Historic Places Act 1993.

The Trust’s preferred option deviates from the former alignment at the crest of the climb from Maymorn, a few hundred metres short of the original Kaitoke station.

RIMUTAKA: 4 Fell engines haul a heavily–laden train | Masterton Library

A new alignment for both railway and walkway would be built, entirely within land held by Greater Wellington Regional Council.

It would head east, climbing towards a saddle in the Kaitoke hill flank, passing through in a 15-20 metre deep cutting. Skirting south of the go-kart lease area, it reaches a new hillside station site.

The Kaitoke Deviation avoids residential areas, and maintains current road access arrangements.

The Trust, a licenced rail operator, is currently developing facilities at Maymorn on New Zealand Railway Corporation (KiwiRail) land, having secured a licence to occupy in 2005 and resource consent in 2008.

A sizable engine shed has been built and railway line has been built through the station area. Six 56-foot railway carriages, donated by a trust member, have been in storage at Ohakune.

The heritage railway will connect with Tranz Metro Wairarapa Line services at Maymorn, as well as tour coach connection from Summit to the Wairarapa via State Highway 2.

The group says this would add to the variety of activities possible in the Pakuratahi Forest Park, including packages that might include both a heritage railway experience and walking/cycling — with enhanced visitor facilities along the route.

RIMUTAKA: Passengers alight as the train slowly makes its way up | Masterton Library

The trust says the plan offers the potential of an internationally significant tourist attraction for the Wellington region should the next stage be established — the Fell-worked incline between Summit and Cross Creek.

Additional approvals will be sought pending a decision from Greater Wellington Regional Council in mid-December.




  1. Rob says:

    What a great project! Sure hope the Wellington Regional Council give the go-ahead.

  2. Matt says:

    What a rubbish project! Sure hope the Wellington Regional Council gives it the heave-ho.


  3. San Luca says:

    Cool. Also *north-east

  4. Anthony says:

    I personally think it is a great idea. I have been to the Silverstream “Rail Muesum” in Upper Hutt and that was an absolute rip-off! $35 each to go 100 metres up the track and back in a dingy carriage. And there is nothing else at the “museum” to look at except for the platform itself. Im not a cynical person but that was beyond pathetic.

    Having a proper attraction for Upper Hutt would be great as, although it is a very nice town, there isn’t much to do for the visitors.

  5. Matt says:

    “Having a proper attraction for Upper Hutt would be great as, although it is a very nice town, there isn’t much to do for the visitors.”

    Oh contraire. Currently there is much to do if you have a bicycle. There is the Hutt River Trail. There is Tunnel Gully and Mount Climie. There are the Akatarawas, and yep lets not forget the very wonderful Rimutaka Incline Rail Trail, which hundreds of people enjoy each weekend, riding their bikes for sport and recreation.



  6. Matt says:

    “Having a proper attraction for Upper Hutt would be great as, although it is a very nice town, there isn’t much to do for the visitors.”

    Oh contraire. Currently there is much to do if you have a bicycle. There is the Hutt River Trail. There is Tunnel Gully and Mount Climie. There are the Akatarawas, and yep lets not forget the very wonderful Rimutaka Incline Rail Trail, which hundreds of people enjoy each weekend, riding their bikes for sport and recreation.



  7. Patrick R says:

    Fail to see why cycling can’t be accommodated as well…. how about engaging with the trust Matt? Wouldn’t a train add to interest on this route and certainly amenity…. or do you insist on keeping it only for one group?

  8. Giel says:

    This proposal is actually quite similar to what was done in Tasmania about a decade ago (The West Coast Wilderness Railway) and it is now a major tourist attraction over there. See this link:


    This is a major investment though and would require some form of public assistance through rates or a major capital development grant. The investment cost would be high but it would likely be a world famous attraction. I suspect it would need underwriting for a while by the Regional Council as the risk would be too high, I suspect, for private equity or debt funding to have it funded in its own right.

    It would be interesting to see their Business Plan and how the large capital expense is proposed to be funded. I don’t think many people understand how difficult running a financially sustainable tourist (or any railway for that matter) railway is - Look to the Kingston Flyer for an example of that. Following its financial fortunes will be very instructive to these proponents.

  9. Matt says:

    @Patrick R. Why not?

    The higlight of the ride is the tunnels. Their proposal to cut parallel bike tracks that avoid the tunnels would completely change the experience and in my opinion ruin it.

    Their parallel cycle tracks are just an after thought line on the map, and a token effort, because they know they would be destroying it all for cyclists. It is a sop to legitimate queries on WTF are they doing.

    The parallel tracks would cost millions to cut and surface properly.

    The West Coast Tasmanian (out of Queenstown) railway is great. I rode it myself. But then again they weren’t destroying a well used recreational asset when they restored it.

    It really is pie in the sky stuff. It would be completely uneconomic to do. It would be difficult to run (and there is a reason they built the big tunnel to bypass the line). There were accidents and fatalities when it was in use and the hills were constantly being set alight by sparks and embers.

    It won’t attract large numbers of tourists. So it will need to be bailed out financially. There are already steam groups at Silverstream, Plimmerton and Paekakariki. Like Wellington needs a 4th (or 5th if you include the trams at QE Park)

    Plus the Rail Trail will form the route between the Hutt Valley and the Wairarapa of the National Cycleway once the National Cyleway idea has a refresh, over the not much yet achieved vision of John Key at the jobs summit.

    As I say I love trains, I love history, I love steam trains, but the Rimutaka Rail Trail is worth way, way more to the Wellington region as a cycleway for walkers and cyclists than a one a day, only on the weekends, only in the summer, lose a whole lot of money, set the forest alight, steam train.

    Now a short trip for a steam train from the Fell Locomotive museum at Featherston to the start of the track at Pigeon Bush or Cross Creek (and no further), or steam train rides from the Hutt valley to Maymorn* (and no further), and bike hire when you get there, that would be cool. Destroying it for the thousands of people who walk and cycle each year would not be cool.

    *I reckon the bike ride is best started at Maymorn and go through the tunnel to Tunnel Gully then there are rideable tracks to the Kaitoke end and the start of the Rail Trail proper.

  10. Paul in Sydney says:


    I believe the plans are to accommodate cycling along side the track, I’m sure they see the benefit of having two wheels using the area and the train service too

    This is a major project that has been long in the planning, I wish them well and and look forward to catching the train to the top and riding down

  11. The Trickster says:

    Sounds similar to that train in the Dandenongs just outside Melbourne - I’ve ridden on that and it was a good day out.

  12. Matt says:

    @Paul in Sydney - the proposed parallel track is not feasible. They’d never be built as good as what is already there (it would cost millions to do so). They’d parallel the tracks except for the tunnels. Then the gradients to get over the hills to bypass the tunnels would be unrideable. The tunnels are the highlight of the ride.

    80,000 recreational cyclists a year use the rail trail.

    A large number of people will be disadvantaged for a relative few to have a day out. They do not need to use the route. Cyclists do need to have the route as a link between the Hutt and the Wairarapa. Have you tried riding the SH2? Dangerous, dangerous, almost impossible, and dangerous.

    This is a group of relatively few older steam freaks (and I share their proclivity for steam trains), but it is just in the completely wrong place.

  13. Martin says:

    @ Matt

    wrong place. Rail was here first, paid for by the nation.

    This part of NZ’s railway history was its most creative, far in advance of the Raurimu Spiral.

    I think you will find that there would be significant national and internation interest in this outside of a few cyclists enjoying a sunday ride (note I’m a avid cyclist myself but 80k would include a large number of repeat users, yourself quite clearly). Importantly it would help generate income in a part of NZ not many people travel to from other parts.

    As stipulated in the plans, the current users of the railway’s foundations will be catered for (Some of the land involved is still owned by the NZ Railways Corp/associated bodies).

  14. Matt says:

    Here’s what I conservatively predict - 50 paying passengers a day for 2 days a week for 50 weeks a year is 5000 people. If they paid $40 each for the privilege it is only $200,000 in revenue. The proposed cost is $13million. That doesn’t include the millions for cutting the additional tracks. It would take 85 years to cover the initial cost of it, and if you were trying to pay back a loan for $13million it would need at least $700,000 a year for the interest alone. Then they’d need insurance. Then they’d need to pay for the coal. They’d be completely broke.

    Financial reality should defeat the proposal and we need not worry.

    Conversely 80,000 people ride the trail each year. There the real value as a community and tourist asset lies.

  15. Chris S says:

    If you are going to attack the group at Silverstream Anthony please at least get your facts right. It is not $35 each for a starter. The price for a FAMILY ticket is less than that, and there track is far more the the 100 mtrs you quote. You seem to attack there carriages but you seem to be quite supportive of this Rimutaka group whos carriages lack rather important things like wheels and seats. I wonder where these steam locomotive are coming from for this group as well. The 3 quoted in the Dom post yesterday are mearly parts dug out of a river. One is only small pieces of the chassis with most of the wheels missing. I hope the GWRC reads between the lines on this and has a close look at this group that may have been going for 10 years but only has 40 members and judging from the photos on there website only a handful of them do any work. How do they expect them to built 13 km of basicly new railway. All power to the cyclists on this one!

  16. Malcolm says:

    I’m a big fan of rail, and I’m for preservation of railway lines but I hope they dont go ahead with this. I agree with Matt. Its far better left as a walking/cycling track. The parallel track with the proposed railway would never be as good as whats there now and I just cant see tourists using it in such numbers to make it financially viable.

    I also find it hard to believe they can rebuild the entire track and build a completely new walkway for only $13 million. It just doesnt sound right. Didnt it cost $10 million just to reopen the Onehunga Branch, and the rails and earthworks were mostly still there!

  17. Andrew says:

    “Oh contraire. Currently there is much to do if you have a bicycle. There is the Hutt River Trail. There is Tunnel Gully and Mount Climie. There are the Akatarawas, and yep lets not forget the very wonderful Rimutaka Incline Rail Trail, which hundreds of people enjoy each weekend, riding their bikes for sport and recreation”.Did you just shot your self in the foot. I think what your mean is there are so many places to ride bikes in Upper Hutt that one less wouldnt be a problem. But I wouldnt get to tied up over it I can’t see it happen. The price tag is very high. It would need public funding which is hard enough to get for real transport routes.

  18. ingolfson says:

    “The tunnels are the highlight of the ride.”

    Uhm, with ONE TRAIN A DAY, couldn’t one keep the tunnels open for cycling? Sure, it would require some form of control (and/or walking speed for the train in the tunnel) but surely that would not need to mean cyclists or walkers can’t use the tunnel anymore.

    I agree with the folks who suggested people like Anthony should engage, rather than oppose, at least if the project ends up “gathering steam” (excuse the pun).

  19. Matthew says:

    It was to be expected that a story like this would bring out the extremists from the cycle lobby with their hysterical nonsense in opposition to the plans of the RIRHT. It is clear that they have not read all of the information available about what is proposed or have refused to approach the issue with an open mind, having predetermined that anything outside their own interests must be bad.

    As a non-profit, the RIRHT relies on a variety of funding sources as do most charities and the fact that they have achieved as much as they have thus far with charitable funding, donations, and volunteer labour speaks favourably to the support the project has garnered. The Trust engaged the services of professionals to report on the viability of the project before construction began which resulted in a favourable assessment.

    The issue of access for existing users of the Rimutaka Rail Trail is spurious as the Trust has included in its plans from the beginning a requirement for the provision of an alternative track, near the existing trail where possible, that is suitable for both pedestrians and cyclists (http://www.rimutaka-incline-railway.org.nz/project/new-walkway). Such a track would be built in conjunction with the re-establishment of the railway with a minimum width, similar grades, and safety considerations. The pro-cycling fraternity have lambasted this project as if it proposes to eliminate the only facility for recreational cycling near Upper Hutt which couldn’t be further from the truth. The RIRHT have always sought to make reasonable accommodations for existing users of the Rail Trail. There are plenty of opportunities to enjoy cycling around the Hutt Valley but this will be the only place in the world where, once completed, one may experience the operation of a Fell mountain railway. If for this reason alone, the Trust should be commended for its efforts and wished every success for the future. I look forward to seeing its trains running someday.

  20. Matt says:

    @Andrew - No I didn’t shoot myself in the foot. The Rail Trail is unique. All the other rides have different aspects and feels. The Rail Trail is a huge asset and a much needed route between Hutt and Wairarapa. The others are routes to elsewhere.

    I see those who’ve never ridden the trail and live in Auckland , thinks it seems like a good idea to engage with the steam people, and local riders, who’ve ridden it think the steam train idea is really daft.

    I don’t know how you would ride through a 500 metre long dark tunnel with train tracks and sleepers, and do the traffic control for the train. There’s no electricity up there.

    At the moment riding through the tunnels focussed on the distant light in the dark, or by the light of a single bike light, with a cool wind blowing through, is a great thrill. The surface is real smooth for riding over. Take your kids up there on their bikes and it is a free fun day. Take a picnic lunch and picnic at Summit. It’s a brilliant day out.

  21. Jack says:

    Have you been to the Trusts website?

    You seem misinformed on a few issues.
    1. The idea seems to be to bring more people into the regional park not expel the current users.
    2. They aren’t all old steam freaks there’s photos on their homepage of younger volunteers.
    3. Their proposed gradients for the walkway/cycleway seem to exceed the New Zealand standard for this purpose.
    4. BERL have done an independant feasibility study on the project so I’m sure they will get more than 5000 people a year.
    5.The current proposal doesn’t affect the tunnels on the Wairarapa side of the route so you can still ride through some of the tunnels.

    I’m sure if you talk to them they are reasonable guys and would work with other stakeholders and users of the park to work through an outcome that everybody enjoys.

    These railway reinstatements overseas have all provided a major boost to the local economy so it has other spin offs other than just some train fans playing trains.

  22. Matt says:

    Calling me an extremist. That takes the cake.

    There is a coordinated effort from the lot behind the steam train proposal to keep on commenting, and keep on attacking. (I know from the stats where people come looking at my blog come from geographically and from which sites they’ve been referred)

    As far as I can tell you don’t even have the respect of the Silverstream people. Is there some great schism amongst the Hutt Valley historic train enthusiasts? Some big slapfest bitch fight?

    You are few in numbers. You are vocal. You keep telling me the plans are fantastic. You keep on asking me if I’ve read the plans and seen the website. Well yes I have, and you know what I still say? They are rubbish. They are pie in the sky. Your numbers are bogus.

    This isn’t about me being a militant cyclist enthusiast. I’m not militant. I’m not violent. But I can tell a dud from a million paces, and your crazy plans are fantasy. They would ruin the cycling experience for the 80,000 people a year who wnjoy it, and you’ll never be able to fund it.

    So there we go. I’m a realist. You’re fantasists. And you are annoying fantasists at that.

    You should take on board community opposition, and be real about the availability of funds, and then you should come up with some plan that adds to the Rimutaka Rail Trail experience, and doesn’t destroy what is really good about the place. Run trains from the Hutt to Maymorn (if the local residents don’t mind the smoke, but I’d ask them first) or something.

    If you ever got your crazy idea any further I would now picket it. You’ve turned a person who believes in public transport advocacy, and would if I lived close and had more time on my hands be in a steam society myself (maybe later in life), who has financially supported other steam train societies (not a lot, but I have), against you.

    What a lot of pig-headed people you are forcing what is really a dumb vision onto the rest of us. Broke no dissent. Accept no differing opinions. You deserve every bit of criticism you will get, and trust me with such a dumb proposal you will get a lot.

    And you call me an extremist. Holy trucking Jeebus.

  23. The Trickster says:

    Matt, as a fellow bike rider, you are coming across as pretty extreme on this.

    Also, I think you’d find that your 50 people per day is rather low - Glenbrook up here in Auckland would get more than that even though its 75km out of town and is on a far less scenic peice of land.

    I also have some reservations, however if this is done properly it will be a significant tourist attraction and will also cater to us in the cycling community - in fact it could work well as both - like the train taking tourists out to the railtrail in Otago.

  24. Matt says:

    Yep similarly, catch the train from Dunedin to the start of the rail trail at Middlemore. But if some enthusiasts wanted to extend the train over the Otago Central Rail Trail there’d be a few people up in arms.

    Everyone keeps labelling me an extremist, but all I have done is pointed out the folly of it and stuck up for the thousands and thousands of people who would have a diminished experience because of their plans.

    Maybe, just maybe, I know what I am talking about.

    I’d love an Auckland to Eketahuna rollercoaster, but if I suggested it everyone would tell me I’m dreaming. They’re dreaming.


  25. Geoff Houtman says:

    “Calling me an extremist. That takes the cake.”

    You’re the same Matt who wanted to walk up to smokers and punch them in the face on transport blogs last week right?

    Yeah, you’re no extremist…

  26. Matt says:

    Yes, in the context of having a smoke free Queen St Mall. And yes I do think if we were allowed to assault smokers back for the physical assaults that they perform each day on us we would soon have a smoke free society.

    Ideally I wouldn’t assault anyone, nor would I advocate assaulting anyone, and the point you are missing is that I wish not to be physically assaulted, and that is where we should be - a smoke free public realm.

    At the moment it’s all forgiving their trespasses, and not an eye for an eye.

    A little eye for an eye would be good to move to the smoke free endpoint a little quicker. Not enough progress to be tobacco-free is being made.

  27. The Rimuka Incline was the last of the very few lines which used the Fell system for haulage up steep grades. There was a line in Brazil, the others in the South Island were only used for braking, so this would be an opportunity to create something unique for tourists as well as rail enthusiasts. H199 is the only Fell loco left anywhere in the world and could be rebuilt into a working specimen which will attract more internatioal interest than a cycle track as most tourists visits are too brief and would rather ride in comfort than endure the vagaries of NZ

  28. dash says:

    I’ve been keeping an eye on progess on this project for years, and I think it’s a great idea. I have walked the incline but I still think it would be great to see a one of a kind railway back in operation. Nothing like it would exist anywhere in the world. It is a really special piece of railway heritage both for the country and the world. I don’t understand the anger from cyclists, an alternative path will be built as part of it.

  29. Bryce says:

    I love old trains and was just out at Glenbrook last weekend for a train ride, however, if the old track is getting the numbers of walkers / cyclists that have been mentioned then surely this must now take precedence? I would love to one day ride through the tunnel. Sounds like a blast.

  30. Alastair says:

    “this will be the only place in the world where, once completed, one may experience the operation of a Fell mountain railway”. The Fell railway only operated on the Wairarapa side. The proposal is to rebuild the conventional railway that ran up to Summit on the Hutt side.

  31. Enzedted says:

    “Yep similarly, catch the train from Dunedin to the start of the rail trail at Middlemore.” Er, that’s rather round about, it’s easier if you take the Taieri Gorge train to Middlemarch. And the suggestion to make the Trail into a railway again was an Otago Daily Times April Fools joke.

  32. Nick says:

    I think it would be great to have a heritage railway there if its workable. Because the incline is such a popular trail for not only cyclists, but walkers, runners and dog walkers too, they need to make sure its not diminished for these users aswell. If the trains were to push out other users from the tunnels, then the incline may as well become any other 4 wheel drive track in Wellington.

    On the Trusts website they talk about building a new walkway to a gradient of 1:8, that is twice as steep as much of the incline which is 1:15. They won’t win much support from recreation users if they are going to steepen the trail. It would also require significant earthmoving to create a walking trail that wasn’t too steep that skirts around the tunnels.

  33. Flash says:

    Here’s the craziest bit: this plan doesn’t even involve recreating the Fell railway. The Fell system was on the Wairarapa side; not on the Hutt side.
    So why bother to recreate the railway on the Hutt side when the Fell engines didn’t even work that part?
    You end up with an inauthentic rail experience that ruins a much loved and used cycle path.

  34. Jesus says:

    Silverstream Railway is pathethic, so, the sooner they merge themselves with the Rimutaka group and then build a much more decent line of operation then the better off rail heritage will be in Wellington. The Silverstream railway is boxed in. The only place where you could get a decent heritage train service running in Wellington is on the old Rimutaka Railway Formation because thats the only place where the land exists to do this work, and, what a great opportunity. An extant Rail Corridor unused. Establishing a Railway on the Wellington Side of the Ranges is a good idea. The Ultimate aim is to restore the Fell Railway however obviously that is going to be more costly and difficult. first things first, get the Maymorn-Summit section buil then get the trains rolling, get the people comming along etc and then build on that. The trust has to have some way of making money, The best way is if it has an actual Railway to operate on. that gets peoples interest and attention. ultimatey This would be a great heritage railway. it would provide the best place for the silverstream collection to be based and operated on.
    And as for the cyclists…remember the railway would only be operated occasionally. so, in between times you could still ride your bikes. The Rimutaka Railway Trust are not against cyclists. i think the cyclists need to see the benefits of the service and be prepared to work in with the trust. I cant see anyreason why the corridors cant be shared. Admitedyly some places it might be a problem. If both parties work together a sensible outcome ought to be achieved.

  35. Matt says:

    “An extant Rail Corridor unused.”

    Yeah except by 80,000 cyclists per annum.

    “The Rimutaka Railway Trust are not against cyclists. ”

    Oh yes they bloody well are.

  36. bryce says:

    “And as for the cyclists…remember the railway would only be operated occasionally. so, in between times you could still ride your bikes.”

    I think you may find that would be quite uncomfortable - sleepers and the like :-)

  37. Nick says:

    Jesus, what are the benefits that cyclists need to see? By itself I like the idea of a unique tourist steam ride. But the existing users are basically getting the finger to get out of the tunnels. In compensation they get a new trail that may well be steeper in places and not as unique. The trust can’t take over the rail trail and say well we have something almost as good for the people who used to use it. They don’t own the land for a start.

  38. Matthew says:

    “this will be the only place in the world where, once completed, one may experience the operation of a Fell mountain railway”. The Fell railway only operated on the Wairarapa side. The proposal is to rebuild the conventional railway that ran up to Summit on the Hutt side.

    You haven’t read all of what I wrote. To reiterate:
    “this will be the only place in the world where, **once completed**, one may experience the operation of a Fell mountain railway.” The full project includes four stages, of which Stage 1, Maymorn to Summit, is only a part. When the project is completed, as I said, it will be the only place to see the operation of a Fell mountain railway.

  39. Joe Silvera says:

    The members of the RIRHT are mostly former members of Mainline Steam, Silverstream Railway and Steam Incorporated. Former members? Why? There must be reasons! I believe it is a case of not being able to get on with others so pack up my toys and go and build my own sand pit! The steam ‘locomotives’ they have on there current site have been affiliated with Mainline steam, then were stored at Silverstream Rail, then stored at Steam inc, shedding more and more of their irreplaceable parts as they moved around. They are now only a shadow of the parts that were hauled out of the river near Westport over 21 years ago. all very sad really. Plus you will note if you read there constitution on the charities commission website that there are no elections, no agms or similar. this would reinforce the fact that they cant co operate with any of the other groups so they have had to go out on there own!

    I cant understand that any other group would want to “merge” with them!


  40. AKT says:

    It’s been a great discussions - thanks .

    It’s now starting to get into internal politics and personalities so I’m closing it off now.

    We’ll watch with interest what happens.